Heads Of State Podcast
Welcome to Heads of State, your new favorite podcast where New York energy meets DMV flavor. Join Hugh, Shaun, and Dawud for a show that's less like a formal political summit and more like that group chat with your boys that stays buzzing 24/7. We’re all about great laughs, zero filters, and the kind of deep, veteran respect that only comes from years of arguing over sports, hip-hop, and the culture.
We aren't here for safe, boring consensus takes. Instead, you're getting a front-row seat to three lifelong friends holding court on the stuff that actually matters. Whether we’re dissecting a massive corporate marketing failure, losing our minds over historical GOAT logic, or trying to agree on the last truly perfect hip-hop masterpiece, if it moves the culture, we’re talking about it—and having a blast doing it.
Heads Of State Podcast
BLACK CULTURE
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Is Black culture defined by struggle or systemic excellence? The crew debates representation, hip-hop, and performative wins.
Culture is more than commercial entertainment and inherited trauma. When pop culture equates Black identity solely with hip-hop, streetwear, and soul food, it sidelines a deeper lineage of academic, scientific, and infrastructural contribution.
In this episode of Heads of State, the table unpacks the friction between manufactured representation and genuine cultural milestones. Starting with Shaquille O'Neal’s controversial institutional endorsements and the backlash surrounding Nikole Hannah-Jones' public school choices, the conversation rapidly spirals into a raw debate on identity politics.
The hosts challenge whether mainstream media's push for diversity—from the Barbie movie to Disney recasts—is authentic progress or cynical social capitalism designed to monetize Black consumers. They dissect the controversial label of "Black Excellence," questioning if celebrating basic milestones elevates the community or sets the bar too low, and argue whether internal gatekeeping continues to fracture generational growth.
What You'll Learn:
- The Advocacy Dilemma: Why putting your children through underfunded systems to prove an ideological point often backfires.
- The Lineage Debate: Why equating Black American identity solely to 20th-century pop culture erases centuries of scientific innovation.
- Social Capitalism Exposed: How corporations use diversity casting in Hollywood as a calculated monetization tool rather than true inclusion.
- The "Black Excellence" Trap: The psychological difference between celebrating genuine barrier-breaking vs. lowering expectations.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Why Shaq's Politics Confuse the Culture
03:48 - The Nikole Hannah-Jones School Choice Controversy
07:34 - Why You Shouldn't Use Kids as Social Guinea Pigs
14:07 - Is Black Culture Only Defined by the Struggle?
17:00 - The Battle: Hip-Hop vs. Scientific & Academic Heritage
27:33 - What Is Culture? The Dictionary Definition Faceoff
35:19 - Was Modern Black Culture Manufactured by Record Labels?
46:40 - The Apple Pie Test: Cultural Origins vs. Mainstream Adoption
50:09 - Generational Wealth: How Immigrant Groups Leverage Heritage
54:12 - Why Trap Music & Stereotypes Became the Default
59:40 - The Debate Over the Term "Black Excellence"
1:04:10 - Generational Shifts: Community Upbringing vs. Screen Time
1:14:30 - Erasure in Real Time: How History Gets Removed from Schools
1:18:14 - Internal Gatekeeping: Challenging the "Black Card" Mentality
1:24:49 - Hollywood's Diversity Grift: Tokenism in Barbie & Blockbusters
1:37:15 - Social Capitalism: Why Modern Brands Only Care About Trends
1:43:29 - Setting the Standard: Breaking Barriers Without Lowering the Bar
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#BlackCulture #HeadsOfState #CulturalIdentity #SocialCapitalism #RepresentationMatters
All right, so more of that bullshit. Um new new shit coming uh switching topics and and podcasts. Welcome to Heads of State, episode 13. Oh wow. I thought we were already in it. So did I. No, we're tailing off. I kind of transitioned it, like something that overlaps into things. But uh Shaq getting a lot of backlash or taking a uh what what'd he do? He took some kind of honorary fucking federal agent, something or other.
SPEAKER_00He always does something like that. He's been a Trump guy, though. Oh, well, you saw that honorary shit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you saw the thing I sent, right? Uh the the comic dude was talking about Shaq.
SPEAKER_00No, but he's he's been a Trump guy. I knew that.
SPEAKER_04Like, no, why don't people know these things?
SPEAKER_00Anybody with money that still want to keep their money is going to be a Trump person. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I knew this since when he partnered with Papa John's, yo. Like when he did that after the CEO did all that shit.
SPEAKER_01He's he still partnered with him. He's been registered registering for police in every place. Oh, yeah, and he's a fed too, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, he wanted to be, he won, he went to school for that, though. He went to school for criminal justice. He wanted to be a cop.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's way before all that Trump shit.
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's been he's been doing that since Orlando days.
SPEAKER_04Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember he he's he's an honorary cop in Dade County, everywhere.
SPEAKER_02He never came out and publicly backed Trump, though.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He's never publicly backed him. Well, I mean, a lot of people have a personal relationship.
SPEAKER_04I mean, come on.
SPEAKER_02Tiger Woods hasn't either.
SPEAKER_04Oh, Tiger Woods. I'm on the phone. I'm on the phone with the president. I'm on the phone with the president.
SPEAKER_02Snoop Snoop.
SPEAKER_04I don't know. I just you know, you'd be surprised how many like people of color or whatever that is supposed to be, you know, for the culture, for the for the community or whatever. I mean they do shin it, but look, a black Republican is more commonplace than you think.
SPEAKER_05You know, I don't they're following the money, man. They're trying to protect their assets pretty much.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, there's no I mean they're not officer Tatum coonish, but they will be like very critical or do whatever. I'm sure behind closed doors, Shaq has his opinions about you, me, and whoever um as a community. So shout out to Shaq. Of course.
SPEAKER_01Big D I like I like Shaq. Shaq me but look, look, if you're a kid in need of a bicycle, shit. You fucking run into Shaq, that motherfucker gonna buy you a bicycle.
SPEAKER_05I definitely don't give me those shoes, Shaq. I'm good on those.
SPEAKER_00I'm telling you, if you rub a fucking boom box, Shaq will appear.
SPEAKER_04Shazam. Yeah, Shaq. Whatever.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I I I mean that's live. You ever see him live?
SPEAKER_01Oh, but his DJ Monster. Monster. Yeah, he's been going to a lot of creators.
SPEAKER_04He got one of my favorite guys on on online because he he criticized him for uh taking that uh federal agent job. So it is what it is. Uh but you know, they you can't. I mean, Shaq's done a lot. Uh oh yeah, I I I like Shaq.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I yeah, I mean I'm not mad at him.
SPEAKER_04I don't believe in his politics and all that shit. He's he's he's he's going through some shit, I think. Anyway, nostalgia glasses. Should we? I wanted to bring this. Uh, should we go clavicular? Oh, let's keep it black. So, this black woman, um, Dayute sent this over. Uh, and I thought it was interesting. So, this woman right here, uh, to give you the gist of it, uh, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist wrote that she learned about sending her her daughter to a majority black low-income school in New York uh as a choice. She could have put her in private school, she could put her in a good public school, but she put her in a low-income thing as a choice. And I think let me see Bonaball Shannon Advocacy. I think from the uh the kid didn't turn out too well. Um didn't get a good education or something like that, and um what else? Substantial action integrated. Alright, so the bottom line is she chose to put her child in an environment that they were not accustomed to. I guess to prove a point that she can survive in any environment as far as education-wise, and it didn't turn out the way she wanted to. Now, I don't know the the details, nor am I gonna elaborate on them, but my assumption would be that her child probably did get into some kind of um behavioral, you know, um things in the school, or didn't did you read the article?
SPEAKER_01I didn't well no, I'm just listening. But the bigger the bigger question I would have is I'm not commenting much on it. Go ahead. The bigger question I would have is whatever school you know she sent her kid to, this low-income school or whatever, I assume they did not live in that neighborhood, or did they move to a okay, okay. So that's my question, because there's a low-income neighborhood kid, right, that maybe didn't get into that school because there's the districting and all that, and getting into schools and lottery systems and all that can be a little crazy. So I think it's all a little disingenuous to force your kid to go to a school that doesn't not even in the community in which you live. I think that's I I guess if you moved, if she moved and she wanted to, and they wanted, you know, like we're gonna have this experience and we're gonna move over here, and you know, but what was she having her kid bust to some other area?
SPEAKER_03Like that don't I that they're planning a krypton was about to explode, so she put on a rocket ship to the planet birth to show the commoners that they can be good people, Kyle. They just left the light to show them the way. It's like, yeah, it's like what we sent her only begotten son to John 316 them.
SPEAKER_04Okay, I read up a little bit more on this, and I don't think anything negative or positive happened from the experience, but it did set her back because she did not really have the the you know head start that she should have had. Like if you have resources, and this is commonplace in any anybody, black, white, whatever, if you're put in the best environments, the best uh you know, education and around the best people, you tend to make have a better chance of being successful, right? So, and it's even like like look, LeBron grew up in the hood, but he was got bust out or or driven out to a private Catholic school to play ball, and best coaches, everything like that, and he made it out that's just you know, through being in a better system to play basketball and get an education. So, yeah, it works the blind side effect, huh?
SPEAKER_03The blind side effect, yeah, like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But no, I mean he's still he still lived in the hood, which is is crazy. It's an amazing experience.
SPEAKER_02And get an education somebody to culture with without you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't understand measures, yeah. I don't understand. Yeah, yeah, you don't have to, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's what I didn't understand about this. I'm speaking from a perspective of not being informed on the situation. But mom, dad, other moms and dads don't use your kids as guinea pigs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, don't do this.
SPEAKER_00It's a product of uh the her environment. That's what she did. She gave her to uh low income, and then it also reminds me of ATL, where dude went into New News House and was like, You just want to go to the hood to be hood. You got Picasso in your house.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. The writer's name is Nicole Hannah Jones. Um, and I think the right the thing she wrote was called.
SPEAKER_00In education, you could do that in the house. Yeah, like make them make them do chores or some shit like that to make their money. Like do something that is reinforcing what they need to do in life to get ahead.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's part of the problem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes no sense to just okay. You I lived the same, I lived that way, but now I live a better life. I'm gonna make you do the same thing. No, fuck that. Elevate, fuck that shit.
SPEAKER_03Yo, Doug, when I was a nostalgic goggles. When I when I grew up, I had yo, the public school he's about to go back in the past.
SPEAKER_01Go ahead.
SPEAKER_04I'm just no, I'm just talking, I'm gonna give him a story. I have to go back in the past. It's not a found memory. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a memory. I'm not nostalgizing, I'm not nostalgia in anything. I'm telling a story. So when I grew up, I went to Catholic school up until like fourth grade. The public school was right across the street. We used to wear our uniforms and shit. We had to wear ties and all this shit. My education was pretty good. I looked across the street, all these fucked up kids, yo. And I was living in Queens, it wasn't that bad, but like these kids, they they had the they they this shit was all gated up. They had security guards in front of the band. These this is elementary school, mind you. So I was like, damn, these kids is fucked up. I was scared of them. And then I'm I'm going to my Catholic school. We had a private playground, we had all this shit, like all the all the good stuff. My parents paid for it, obviously, but it was it was definitely big. We get his ass to Long Island.
SPEAKER_01Fuck this shit.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah. Then we moved out to we went to public school, but it was one of the best public schools at that time in the nation.
SPEAKER_01That's yeah, that's Trump country. You know, that shit was Republican now.
SPEAKER_04No, no, back then it was a little more. No, it was it was it was pretty much. Yeah, Long Island. Get these baggers out of here. Yeah, no, when man, I didn't know I didn't know what racism was until I moved out there, bro. That shit was I didn't know. I didn't like Drew, I didn't see color, yo. I I really didn't. I didn't know the difference between no black and white when I got out there. They they told me I was black. I didn't know it. I had no clue until my sister got even work because she was in junior high school. And they her hair, and she my sister didn't have no straight hair back, and her hair was like curly, she was going through some like phase. Um, but like she had it harder than me. That's why to this day she still doesn't does not like black people. She said, I'm gonna marry the blackest man I could find, and she did. And um me personally, it kind of I was like, you know, just imagine, just imagine how just imagine how the kid that uh you leave that alone.
SPEAKER_01Just imagine how the kid that she sent to school, the the school, right? The the poverty in school or whatever, how they because you know, from their perspective, they're thinking to themselves they don't relate to any of these kids whatsoever. So you I mean it's it's like you're trying to give your kids some immersive experience that they have no reckoning of how to even see and what's in front of them, they can't even communicate with these kids, you know. So that's a very weird dynamic that she would think that was a good idea. Um, outside of just teaching your kids, you know, staple things in the home. And that's the that's that I think that's kind of like what shifted. Because think about it. Um well Drew, you have kids. Do you have kids? Yeah, no, Drew, I know Drew has kids. Yeah, I'm sorry, which who has kids on here? John?
unknownJohn.
SPEAKER_00I ain't got no kids.
SPEAKER_01No kids? Okay. But we all know growing up, I remember my mom would go to parent teacher conferences. I remember there was a workup to the fact that we knew the day and it would be in person and it would be this and that. And I remember as a my son was growing up, the parent teacher con, and this is primarily uh because of COVID happening, you know, my son being 13, it started being all virtual conference, and then it became a 15-minute thing as far as like a Zoom meeting, and it wasn't really much to it. But I do remember distinctly going to school with my mom, waiting in the hallway while she was in the classroom with my teacher, sweating my ass off, thinking, God damn, I hope they tell you I'm good, I'm saying doing something good. It was a relationship between parent and teacher, as far as that dynamic that went away. Right. So this lady, at least I'm I'm extrapolating, sending her kid there was kind of a way for her to teach her kids something that the for the school to teach her something that she couldn't. And and that's sad.
SPEAKER_00No, I feel like she tried to teach her kids street smarts and that shit backfired.
SPEAKER_01But that's what I'm saying, that she couldn't, that she couldn't. Because my kid, even though it grows up completely different than I grew up, there's certain things that I teach my son as different, you know, like just as far as like how to how to meet the best, but yeah, like and sometimes it doesn't have to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Because you can't you can't put your kid in a situation that you have not given them some tutelage in and expect them to thrive within the environment that you put them in. It's like putting them on a bike and you didn't teach them shit about riding a bike. They're gonna fucking crash to a wall. So, you know, if if if if she's not teaching them street smarts and then she puts the kid in there, and the kid has no inkling of street smarts and how they're gonna get finessed all the time and all this, then that's all that's gonna happen. Then the kid's gonna have a chip on their shoulder. Lamb to the water, huh? Yeah, yeah. So the line is scenario. I don't know. That's I don't know the background of the parent. I don't know their their story.
SPEAKER_04They pulled the surprise-winning author.
SPEAKER_01Well, as far as their as far as their growth, how they grew up and all that.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, I don't know. Probably, probably well to do. They just want to fucking use their kid as a fucking game pick for bullshit.
SPEAKER_05Do that with do that with my sibling, don't do that with me. Yeah, that's just crazy.
SPEAKER_00But you know what's weird?
SPEAKER_04It's like it's it's it's and this is one thing like Sean. I I you know, I know you and I fundamentally agree on a lot of black culture issues, but I despise the fact that black culture is only defined by our struggles for the most part. I do think that you you you are a product of where you came from historically, all that stuff, and we're not we're not that many generations into being free as black people in this country. But it's I I I despise the fact that everything's compared, you know, to that struggle, like slavery, this, that, and the third. I get it. I do but using it as a crutch or also using it as um the or or the other side, like the the like white supremacy using it as like a like hey, you were better off back then or whatever.
SPEAKER_02I want you to look up the definition of culture.
SPEAKER_04What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_02I want you to look up the definition of culture. Why? Oh shit, here we go.
SPEAKER_06I know what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02Because you're not really just what you're describing is not really what how culture is created, and I think you'll be surprised in what you read.
SPEAKER_04What the shared set of beliefs, values, customs, behaviors, and art. I try to tell you this all the time. No, you always compare culture to fucking shit like, hey, every Indian person's a doctor. Everybody that's not culture.
SPEAKER_01Okay, oh my god. You you guys knowing Hugh well enough knows that. Okay, wait, wait, wait. What did I say that was wrong?
SPEAKER_04I'm telling you that I I like us I'm talking about saying that the like defining us by our buttons.
SPEAKER_01But what but you what you just said is not a dis a the description of how I've ever described culture. How have you described culture?
SPEAKER_02But what I'm saying is is it's a shared belief. So you all could stop believing something, or we all could stop believing something to values, customs, behaviors.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, correct.
SPEAKER_02Go ahead, Sean.
SPEAKER_01No, but uh what the the what he the the the thing that he and I always get into with this whole culture uh conversation is it when I look at uh black culture, right? Black American culture, right? Hugh does not seem to want to connect that to any kind of African culture. He says it's American, you know, because we created our own thing here, right? It's it doesn't have anything to do with this, that, or the other. And I think that's just completely false. I think we assimilated, I think, I think black people assimilated into Western culture, and there's a derivative of that that is now what what we what we have, right? Part of our culture today. But we were scientists and doctors and uh and and mathematicians and you know engineers. That was part of our culture.
SPEAKER_04That's not culture though.
SPEAKER_01It okay.
SPEAKER_04That's belief is where wait what about being a doctor scientist? What is that that a belief? Is that a value? Is that a custom? Is that a behavior? Well, maybe it's a behavior. Yes, yes, it is. Is that an artifact? So okay. So because there are black well, what behavior or I mean what does any of those things have to do uniquely with black culture?
SPEAKER_01Pew, Hugh, do you understand there's white doctors, right? Chinese doctors, Indian doctors. This is this is where it gets kind of, I don't even know. This is a conundrum. Those are accomplishments. Okay, do you understand that no, it's not. Do you understand the history of mathematics as far as the the reasoning in which mathematics exists and what it did for humanity? What what give me your interpretation of what mathematics? What does that have to do with culture? Oh my god, okay. Tell me what it has to do with culture. Okay, okay, okay. What the that that those the colours are.
SPEAKER_03You don't consider uh rich history of education and discovering science culture.
SPEAKER_01Academia, yes. Academia. It's part Benjamin Banneker, telescope in the skies, like that that changed humanity, bro. Like what that is culture. It changed the way we look at things. I understand that.
SPEAKER_04No, but what's cult it's yes, it's part of black people's accomplishments. No, you it's not a American diaspora or whatever you want.
SPEAKER_01No, it's not American diaspora. They did that stuff in America, right? We we we know Q. This is what I'm trying to explain to you.
SPEAKER_04We but yeah, and then pimped globally what it was done here.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay, Africa.
SPEAKER_04Wasn't done in Africa.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04What was done in Africa? Did they invent the the the the the uh traffic light in Africa? Did they invent um the black people didn't accomplish amazing things by Africa? No, I'm saying what do you need to American black culture or American black?
SPEAKER_01Science and mathematics are rooted science and mathematics are rooted into everything which we can consider culture. The the us these Bluetooth fucking headphones come from mathematics and fucking calculus.
SPEAKER_04And that what does that have to do with the zero? Because there are Chinese people, there are white people, there are Indian people who are just as smart that invented similar things. Hugh, can I ask a question? That has nothing to do with how black people I have a question.
SPEAKER_03So let's look at the science of acupuncture that was primarily rooted in Asia. Would you say that's cultural to Asia?
SPEAKER_04Acupuncture?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like that's a legit question. Like, I'm not being funny.
SPEAKER_04Like medical, it's uh you can let's consider that a medical procedure, right? They do it here too. Invented by what culture? Yeah, but that's not that has nothing to do with it. Okay, dude, does everybody do? Let me put you this like why you can combat it. Can you answer my question? Can you just answer my question, bro? Yeah, developed by what Chinese people? It was developed in China, yes.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so maybe you don't know that culturally relevant to Chinese culture. Is it exclusive to China? Is it something that China Chinese people do? That's not what I asked you. Because look at you, right? Me, Drew, is it embedded in the day-to-day action? Can I finish before I leave? You motherfuckers don't know what culture. This is some smart thing. I don't even know what you think about culturally.
SPEAKER_04I don't understand. This man asked me to do it. He's trying to say acupuncture. Like everybody can do that. Can you let me keep talking before they're talking about it? Can I can I make a point? Can I make a point?
SPEAKER_03Can I make a point with their Jeff Staples? Can I make a point? Go ahead. Thank you. Go the fuck on. Would you would you agree that me, Drew, and John have more sneaker cultural history than you? Sneaker cultural history than me? Are we more ingrained in the culture than you have been? Yes or no? In sneaker culture, yeah, for sure. Right. You have come into the culture as an after-effect during the pandemic. I would say yes and no. Yes or no?
SPEAKER_04I would say I always had an affinity for like the culture itself from an outsider perspective. But when they started buying more shit, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Now, just because just because someone can enjoy a culture after the fact, like for example, I want to go to school for acupuncture, you can agree that let's say a specific cuisine is cultural. Now, if I enjoy that cuisine, does it discredit it from now? Now it's just historical food eating. I never said that. That's how you're acting. You're saying, oh, now that now that other people can adopt parts of the culture, it's just history at this point.
SPEAKER_04We were just talking about a guy, a doctor, a lawyer, a guy inventing something. What the fuck does that have to do with the way you dress, the way you move? But that's the part you don't understand. That's the innovation.
SPEAKER_03So Sean is describing to you that mathematics and science did not invent on this hemisphere. Because you keep associating things to this American diaspora. It was not invented on this hemisphere.
SPEAKER_01But we use it, but we use it here for everything. But now it's being used, for example, as headphones.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Do you understand? Why can't education beats science? Things like that be culturally relevant. Yes. Acupuncture is a form of medicine.
SPEAKER_04They're culturally relevant figures because they're representative of the culture and outside of the diaspora. Meaning that these people did things that superseded what they're in what's what's into so like when I talk about culture, I'm talking about hip hop culture. Are you talking about like sneaker culture? All the stuff I'm talking, see, he discredits that stuff. I don't discredit that. Why don't we prop up Ben I don't Ben whoever's discredited this lawyer, this person? I'm like, we could. They represent like like like Tiger Woods is a great representative of black culture within golf, right? And what did they what instead of saying you know what and what did and he didn't really represent blackness in golf as much as he could have, like when they remember when they were like joking about he's gonna have fried chicken and collard greens at the thing? He should have fucking had child fried chicken and collard greens at the thing because that is black culture. Yeah, but that's not his culture because he comes from a mixed household. But I'm just saying that if he was black, black, if he understood black culture, if he understood that's that he should have done that. Just the same way that they would have to have German, I'm gonna have hot worse. That's what I always say. That's what Irish. I'm gonna have Haggis and the science and like when I'm talking about when I talk about science and math maths, you go to you go to fried chicken.
SPEAKER_01So it's just too they're not and people like Sean are proud of that culture. No, it's to an extent. I love fried, I love fried chicken. I don't have a problem with fried chicken, but I but I but I hate the fact that we have to be relegated. It's like when we were talking about who could say that is that culture? No, no, it was this all came up when we were talking about who could say nigga, right? We were like, oh, and then and then the whole the whole adage is is that if you have a black parent, you can say that. And I said, I don't want to bloodline who can say the word because I think that's bullshit. I don't want to be like, I don't want to be like son, because I'm black, you can say that. I want to be like son, I want to teach you about the forefathers of what you learn in school today, day by day, right? Literature, science, mathematics. There's a huge amount of what we brought to the world through those formats, okay? That's integrain anything, everything that we do today. So it's beyond when you're talking about culture, all those things are integrated into everything you do. Everything that's the shirt you're wearing, how it was made, how it was manufactured, okay? That all comes from a derivative of uh our culture. That's what I think about as far as our culture, okay? I know there's different things of it, there's different elements of it, there's different sects of it, but you always want to say I discredit, I don't discredit. I think that what from from a time in which we came where we had nothing and we created so much out of nothing. I appreciate that fact, but I also appreciate the fact that that came uh as far as in the Western hip hop culture that we have, that came from nothing. So, you know, the the the the the sports and the the hip hop and all that which allowed for us to have a forefront and to be seen, but that's now how we were historically seen. We were historically seen as academ academics, we were historically seen as scientists, educators.
SPEAKER_04When did white people let us have that?
SPEAKER_01No, no, what you don't know who Matthew is. So this is okay. So see this. This is what I don't understand. I think I do. No, when did white people let us have that history?
SPEAKER_04No, I'm serious. When? Have you ever heard of Bergard Marshall? Sean, this is a lot of I appreciate it. And I can I understand that. Have you ever heard of Jimmy?
SPEAKER_01Have you ever heard of like these names? I grew up, my mom used to be. I know these. I used to have to read books of the but it was. I get it, Sean.
SPEAKER_04It's Frederick Douglass.
SPEAKER_01Like, I mean 99.
SPEAKER_04There's a large percentage of black people that can't we can't necessarily look backwards. You have to look ahead and understand. I get what you're saying. Historically, these things are great.
SPEAKER_01But it's historic, it exists today. We need to stop being brainwashed and thinking it's historic. It's relevant today. The shit that we created is relevant today. Let's not try to put it on. Oh, that happened before. That happened before. That happened before.
SPEAKER_04I understand that, but what we're doing today is not acknowledging the fact that there are successful people in the diaspora that are doing things that have more than there were 50, 20, 50, 70, 70, 100. There are. I don't agree with that. You know, you the the problem, this is again the nostalgia thing. No, it's not nostalgia. Nostalgia. But not the fact that that person is nostalgia. There's 50 of those guys now. Yeah. No, there's amazing how you could tie that bow. There's 50 Michael Jordans now. There's 50. Um Ben, uh, what's his name?
SPEAKER_00The the the things for culture.
SPEAKER_04No, but see, this is I tried. When you try to do like Drew, you asked me to define culture, and I did. I looked up the dictionary.
SPEAKER_02You defined a piece of culture. You def you're saying that that's the only piece of black culture is your point of view.
SPEAKER_04No, I'm not even oh my god. Culture that's the way you sound.
SPEAKER_00We're not talking about offset daughter.
SPEAKER_04Listen to what I'm listening to the definition of culture and tell me if all cultures, for the most part, white, black, whatever, the shared set of beliefs, values, customs, behaviors, and artifacts that are characterized that that characterize a social group and are passed down through generations. We are in literally maybe the third or fourth generation.
SPEAKER_01And you know what? And you know, and you know what? And you know what? And you know what? What I don't want to pass down to our generations, who can police, how we how are we gonna police who can say the word nigga? Like, I don't want that to be a part of what we pass down. That's the whole point I'm making. That is part of what it's not like. But that's not that's not a part of what's a cultural discussion. It's part of what I don't want to be a part, I don't want to be a part of the word. You don't have to be, you can choose to not to say the word or to do anything. But it's not about using the word or saying the word or whatever, because we all grew up saying the word, it's about the lineage in which, right, that we pass down the beliefs of science, math, academia. That was what we passed down, and that's the part that's that is no different than an Indian white. We passed down advanced mathematics and advanced science. Why do you like that's what we passed down?
SPEAKER_03Why do you generalize certain aspects of the argument, though, bro? Because the same thing is that. This is the thing that chicken is exclusively black culture when other folks fry chicken. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Exactly. Every when a black person is a difference. So you know the example of acupuncture. You danced around it, but that's a traditionally Far East medicine. Yes. That is cultural, bro.
SPEAKER_04I understand it, but you have to. Yes, it's very much. You have to understand it's a medical practice that is practiced globally for now, for the most part. Now, but like think about the cultural origins, bro. They're not even crediting it. Bro, a white person established a restaurant. Is it customary for people to go into their home on a Sunday night and stick needles in their ass to take away pain? No. You go to a doctor to do that. It's a treatment. There's treatments that were made in the US. Oh my gosh. Everybody does. People like great, like when they Ben, what's the fucking guy, Ben? So got the biggest thing.
SPEAKER_03It's funny that the four of us can have a conversation normally, and H gotta get energy. You're talking about a medical procedure. So, guys that are listening. I mentioned sneakers, right? You guys are just dancing. Now sneakers at one point was primarily associated with black culture, but now it got so you got blacks, you got Asians, you got whites, but that that doesn't count to H's argument. But when I use the specific thing like medicine, just because everyone can now practice it, it's nothing void to being full of the colour. So that's a part out of the book.
SPEAKER_04Is it customary for them to do it in their home? Is it custom? There's certain things like let's just say like actually a lot of people do it in their home.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was gonna say holistic.
SPEAKER_04I'm not saying you guys are taking you guys are taking it, you're taking this this this very, very specific thing. Not everybody's doing acupuncture in their home. Okay, let's take it as a values start generalized. Believe values, customs, behaviors, and artifacts. What how many percentage of motherfuckers doing acupuncture in their fucking house right now?
SPEAKER_00So that's why this is an actual business.
SPEAKER_03So when I gave you another example that wasn't the niche, you just have two hours about it.
SPEAKER_04Tell me, how many of them are doing it right now? Right? So now that I gave you another example, so now that I gave you a cultural, maybe just people stick needles in his ass.
SPEAKER_03It was me, but now everybody can black.
SPEAKER_04I'm talking about shit, music, art.
SPEAKER_03So when I gave you speakers, so when I gave you sneakers, you ain't had nothing for me. And I'm giving it to you again, you still don't got nothing for me. You still don't got nothing for me. They're not taking me, sticking to the ass and relieve pain everything. Like, H, bro, you shit at all.
SPEAKER_04When you think that you're smart or some shit, and you say some dumb shit like that. It doesn't even make no fucking sense. Wow. It makes no fucking sense. You act like Drew comes here. Oh, that's why you definitely like you can't look that shit up and even debate it. Are you saying I want to understand your point of view with culture?
SPEAKER_02Clearly, it's very different from all of ours.
SPEAKER_01So have you guys heard so anything I've said, do you guys think I've discredited it?
SPEAKER_04No, you're saying, you're saying you're talking about black excellence. You're talking about excellence in the culture. Like people can be proud of people who do things, graduating college, becoming a doctor, inventing something, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. People do this every fucking day. White people do it, Chinese people, European people, all types of people do that shit. I'm gonna show you. We're not arguing that I'm gonna show you, I'm gonna show you.
SPEAKER_01That's I understand, I understand. I understand that's what he's arguing. He's saying why don't we appreciate that? I understand. I understand. I never said I didn't appreciate that, but I also appreciate it. I also appreciate sneaker culture. I also appreciate your black culture. All that shit. My black culture started with this. My great-grandmother, my grand, my grandfather, her son, my grandfather, my parents, both yeah. So it started with this. And this is how we used to step outside. This is how we used to come outside, right? This is gonna turn your hat around then. Why aren't you wearing a suit? It's not about no, it's not about wearing a suit. The mindset in which, right? Do you understand what I'm saying? The mindset? But but it but you wearing a fucking suit. But but let me explain to you why we used to just. I know you said niggas afternoon. We had a couple of conversations you said niggas, so don't tell me about who's representative of your interpretation, but you're missing it. You're missing my. I'm not passing that shit down, you're missing nigga all the fucking time. You're missing. Don't be a hypocrite about that shit. I do not go to any podcast, hold on. Listen to every podcast, anytime we've argued, we can listen to every clip. I say it all the time. I do. I'm just sick of these dumb takes. That's not true.
SPEAKER_04It's not contrarian. You just said something. When I'm not talking about these guys, but you it's just like, oh, you just you just you just pop out what the fucking definition of culture is. Like that's gonna what the fuck are you talking about? But look at the to understand your point of view. Your point of view, Drew.
SPEAKER_02So to me, what culture means to you. Okay, what it means to me is let's say, for example, everybody, every Sunday you sit down and have dinner with your family. Every Sunday, and you just start doing it, so you create that atmosphere, and then for generations, there everyone is doing it now, right? In the family, that is part of their culture.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes, I agree. The teachings, the lessons. That's simple.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it's a lot of things that help build culture because everybody could have dinner now, it's not culturally relevant because everyone has to eat food to eat.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Everybody has a plate, I got a plate. Well, fuck this is culture. This is this is culture. Yeah, bro. It's not it's not like cultures can expand or be cultural. You never heard the phrase cultural exchange, I guess. Yeah. Fuck. Or culturally relevant. So here's the thing. Just because it started somewhere and was invented by certain people and was only practiced by certain people, now everyone can do it. So it's not cultural anymore.
SPEAKER_01So my only does that mean? My my only issue with American black culture as far as how it was derived. I hate how look, we've done amazing things as Americans in this country, as black people enslaved and getting out of slavery. How our culture derived from that, I hate because I understand what our culture was leading into that. So I look at that as a hiccup and a stoppage in time of what our culture could have grown to be. So the hip hop culture and all that, which I appreciate and I grew up loving and I grew up appreciating. What put hip hop in our hands was not us. What distributed hip, no, it was not us. What distributed what we heard, okay? We came from Motown, Barry Gordian. That was us. That was our likeness, that was our voice. That was what we had tangible evidence in, okay? And and Motown was a movement, okay? It changed. And it was distributed by people that were not us. So our culture, and in that way, I look at it as partially manufactured, even though, as we always do, we take scraps and we make them great, we make them magnanimous. So I appreciate that, but I don't rest on those laurels that that's our real fucking culture. I rest on what we came from. Engineers, scientists, mathematicians. That's what I rest on. So we have a difference in like culturally relevant things that I see that are more relevant than others. Like I I look at hip hop, yes, it's a it's a it's culturally relevant, yes, but it's it's a microcosm, in my opinion, of black African culture. Like in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02There's no wrong answer in this. I don't know what you're arguing. Yeah, like I don't know what you're even saying. You're you're you're not proving us wrong, and we can't necessarily pro get you to see a different point of view. You just literally discredited a whole uh why do you keep saying discredited it?
SPEAKER_04You just did. You just said that's oh, we're better than that. You're basically saying, oh, we're better than the music and the manufactured. The fact that you say it's manufactured doesn't even make sense. All right, it doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_03I'm convinced you're just not listening to this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, he says that our culture was manufactured from Michael Jackson was down the motine. Jackson Five was down the motine. They did fabulous movies. That was manufactured. No, I just said that was that part was a black man.
SPEAKER_01That part we were not, because we were just we were putting out our own, we were the label. Do you understand what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_04When were we with the label? When were we the label? At what point? And when we were the label, we destroyed it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, you don't have to be able to do that. We destroyed it when we were the label when we tried to do things. Oh my god. See, see, you go in such the negative where there's so much of a positive. So you're saying I'm discrediting, but that's what you're doing. You're literally just discrediting it.
SPEAKER_04Because you literally said you work within what what the what have you, what have any of us for the most part built without the help of the city? I'm not saying without the help of somebody who has a different color than us.
SPEAKER_01I'm not saying the financing help, but you know we were bamboozled and duped into bullshit. Do you understand how I'm saying? Bro, so we're descendants of slaves. What do you mean? So do you do do you do you understand the the drug the drug situation and hip hop kind of correlated? Do you understand the issue? No, do you understand that? That that's kind of a likeness. So it's it's like the it's like the whole thing where we talked about this before with the whole Dave Chappelle thing, right? Where he talked about the executives always let him say the word nigga in every single thing, right? And he said, How come I can't say F-word for gays or stuff like that? And they said, Well, you're not gay, Dave Chappelle. And he said, Well, I'm also not a nigga. Do you understand the dynamic of that?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I understand that. But what does that have to do with culture? What does that have to do with it? If Dave Chappelle says nigga every other word, because we're I met the man, he says the fucking shit all the time. So if he wants to say it on TV, he'll say it. If the TV station lets him do that, that's to their discretion. And I understand why.
SPEAKER_01We are promoted to call each other. You want to know why we're promoted to call each other niggas and then we have and then we're protecting the right to call each other niggers. Do you understand how fucking bullshit that is? How is it bullshit? Okay. I I I don't I just like you have to understand. We cannot have this conversation. We are on two different planes when it comes to this. We just are, and it's fine. We just are. I don't the proliferation for us to say that and then protect saying it, I think is literally. We literally had a whole conversation about nobody's protecting saying it can Joe say the words.
SPEAKER_04Can this person say it? Because we understand culturally and how the word has been.
SPEAKER_01I was dumb to use, in my opinion, I was dumb to use the word as a teenager. It it in the time I grew up in the 80s and 90s, okay, that was at the forefront of every movie, every song that I heard from 12 years old on.
SPEAKER_04But you don't still in the music, still in the movie.
SPEAKER_01But but but again, no, it's not actually. We just had a whole conversation about the inner city movies and all this kind of shit. Now we got this whole drill rap situation where kids are getting killed for for all kinds of shit. We've grown into worse and worse when it comes to this dynamic, you. It was it was a first, it was first about righteousness. No, no, broken glass everywhere, like describing, right?
SPEAKER_04There's more doctors, lawyers, billionaire, millionaires, billionaires, black billionaires.
SPEAKER_01There's I just I just can't. I just I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Black women have surpassed a lot of people in in there's a lot of things you're just not paying attention to.
SPEAKER_01No, you're victim to the smoke screens, bro. I don't understand. I think there's the problem is that the device of nature the tokenization has has has not only been in Bitcoin and and crypto, the tokenization is also in people, and you really don't get it. How okay? So let me ask you a question. No, it's it's so sad. You really don't get it. And I'm not, I don't mean you. We used to have we used to have leaders are the forefront. We used to have people that would risk their fucking life for for the right to vote, my guy. For the right to vote. We used to have people risk their lives to sit down at a counter and eat food to feel equal. And you're talking about how many more billionaires of shit we have. Like it's just I we just don't have we cannot have this conversation. We cannot.
SPEAKER_04Because that's okay.
SPEAKER_01You're talking about a discrediting and and and you're just in my you're lost in a sauce, in my opinion, as far as the things because I measure success and progress versus what I don't understand.
SPEAKER_04You're you're you're talking about things. Yes, we should appreciate what our culture has done in this country, but you also have to think what the setbacks were that have put us in the environments that are still holding us back. The school to prison pipeline, the the the um the the the shit, even the shit with the Nolan Wells kid. Like that shit's crazy. We don't even get uh the fair justice in our court systems still. Yeah, that's but but that's been the case since the beginning of time. Exactly. And that's not our like you're you're but you're you're telling me that all of these things, yes, we've had great whatevers, but you're telling me that even though we've had progress, we've had great whatever we work, we work. Well you say discredit. No, I'm not discrediting it. I'm saying whatever. I'm just saying whatever in the sense that, yeah, we've done a lot of things, okay? But at the end of the day, this country is built on the top of white supremacy. It's not built on the top of, hey, who does better at this or that? The numbers prove it. Black people are better, black dads are better than than than all most dads when it comes to being in the home and doing all this. Um, there's there's uh our growth when it comes to um, you know, successful people is a lot, a lot of black people considering the population and all that other stuff, that are millionaires and billionaires and doctors and lawyers and all that stuff. The numbers are there. It's just that, hey, this is not the country that's gonna sit there and put any country really outside of Africa with prop up black people as being the greatest in their in their in their in their thing. Europeans don't do that shit. You think you go to India? That's why a bunch of black people doing a lot of good black things, and they're not being like credited the same way in that culture.
SPEAKER_01We live in a country that does not give a fuck about black people. But but but but no, but but but the problem is, Hugh, and the whole time I've been describing this, okay, is that internally.
SPEAKER_04As a race, in my opinion, we don't give enough about we don't care enough about ourselves and about the next one of and about the next female because again we're not going to be the credit we clients we we I never discredit see that's the problem you say I'm discrediting when I'm saying hey You just said that when other people enter the spectrum it's for everybody now so I guess so bro when you're a scientist what are you trying to do cure a disease for who everybody that has that disease right black white yellow and then it goes out and gets distributed out to whatever that's again if it was specific let's just say what's a specifically black disease uh like sickle cell anemia let alone say let's say sickle cell like that type of shit right it affects a lot of black people that might be culturally relevant if they specifically did that for African descent people of African descent that might make a little more sense in the cultural conversation when you're talking about a scientist that's saying hey I'm gonna make a traffic light I'm gonna invent this or that to benefit society to benefit the world as a whole yes it's great that he's part he or she is black black or part of black culture and and and lives and breathes that maybe but then have you have you ever heard of any have you ever heard of the phrase uh as American as apple pie?
SPEAKER_01You ever hear that phrase? What does this have to do with no I'm just asking you I'm just asking you why why we gotta answer your questions and you just can't answer nobody else yes so you've heard that so you so you've heard of that okay so so American so uh apple pie is American culture right for everybody in America right I don't know was I I don't know. No, I'm asking you I'm just asking people what yes do you look at Apple pie? I don't know if it was invented here or whatever, but yeah you can correct the record on that if I'm wrong but do you look at American pie do you look at uh apple pie as American culture? Do you look at American pie and if you hear apple pie if you hear apple pie do you think American culture do you do does it resonate in any way as American It's English I just looked it up they made it oh my god okay no I'm just trying to say I'm looking it up but um you don't know so you don't synonymous with American could have made a movie about it you don't do the same nine times out of ten if somebody if Sean was to ask somebody on the street if he said what do you correlate American pie with hot dogs yeah or apple pie sorry is apple pie people are gonna say like America yeah right you would you okay well I mean would you I mean you're saying okay I just want to get your opinion we're I'm trying to get your point of view like I'm trying to understand okay so so do you look at American do you look at apple pie as as American culture do you as part of America yeah I guess so yeah okay so America so American pie is for everybody right it's for you know everybody you don't you don't know where I'm going with this you're you're trying okay associating with the culture of see uh you America's unique in the sense that there are so many different cultures here okay never mind I'm just saying it's unique in that sense but also you're trying to figure out where I'm going I'm asking you very simple questions and you're just not answering yes you're trying to psychobattle the bullshit no you're trying to I'm just saying that do you think American pie do you think apple pie is American culture where are you going with I just said yes like 10 minutes ago answer his question so we can get there shit okay okay it's for and I said it's for everybody right and then you started going down this whole dialogue yeah I guess so yeah well I don't understand when you say it's for everybody what does that mean because you you just made a point to say that if everybody the doctor's acupulture everybody's using it right that's what you're saying you said that acupuncture you go to a doctor it's medicine it's not it's not it's not Asian culture how many people sticking a needle in their butt that's what you just said that so why are you looking confused you literally just said that and I've just made an example made it very simple for you about fucking pie and you're telling me it's American culture now you're gonna backtrack on it aren't you why are you confused on that I don't understand are you uh he just literally said how many people sticking needles in their ass how many people eating apple pie just because you don't like does just because you right apple pie is American culture whether you eat it or not right is still part of American lexicon as far as culture hot dogs baseball still part of American fucking culture not everybody likes baseball not everybody likes apple pie it's still part of American fucking culture so that doesn't mean you gotta stick a needle in your fucking ass okay to be for aquaculture to be part of eastern medicine asian culture do you know do you understand now?
SPEAKER_03Is it part of I just made that so fucking simple I don't understand you're I just use your example I just used your example okay I get it no I understand what you're saying and I partially agree with you no I'm I agree with you partially wow I think acupuncture was a bad example Lucari's part to use for it wasn't it was a perfect example it was it's not it's my point was just because something is spread out across the world is common practice you can still trace its roots yes to a cultural standpoint like apple piece in medicine like apple pie they they play baseball all over the world they literally have a common baseball tournament like it's called America's pastime what is your definition of black American culture excluding no Sean take out your feelings about hey we're not talking about the guy who invented this or that blah blah blah take those feelings out of the equation and define black American culture for me what is it tell me tell me specific things that black Americans do that other people don't do or or that they uniquely built or uniquely created Sean if I may yeah black American culture comes with an asterisk to Sean's point earlier because it is mined from trials and tribulations for example I've been saying that cool and when Sean says it becomes an argument.
SPEAKER_04No Sean he puts he like this is the framework he used in our last on tape he said Indian and Asian cultures they have like uh Chinese people open dry cleaners and become doctors that's part of Indian people open up high no that's part of the colours you go to India every dry cleaner I go to hotels and convenience stores in India not all of them not all of them I'm not saying it's not part of their culture that they work in those attempts to fucking have the opportunity unless they come here the Patel family owns nine over like 75% it's Indian Patel is an Indian it's it it's it's a it's literally like a tribe it's not just one family.
SPEAKER_01Do you understand the dynamics you know Indian right it's patel is a fucking it's it's it's a name it's like Muhammad in the Muslim but yes it's like that that is part of their culture Hugh when they came to America yes because they made that synonymous with how they build their business and bring their family over and all that but but yes but you go to India and that's what no but but Hugh but Hugh and this is what this is the whole point that you're missing the reason that hotels and motels became a part of Indian culture is because of the work Indian yeah in America and I'm gonna break this shit down for you is because of the way they fucking live in India the the mothers the grandmothers the family dynamic that's how they were successful in the hotel industry they all lived in the fucking motel they lived and they worked there that was a part of their culture that they assimilated into American culture okay and that's how they became they owned hotels in India they did this in India it's kind of like how Drew you can I guess speak to this with your heritage so back in the day like people were treated as like a second class and one of the most undesirable jobs to do was to work in banks.
SPEAKER_03No one wanted to do that they didn't want to manage money. Fast forward hundreds thousands of years later you associate stereotype or not a lot of financial institutions with Jewish people because they took that part of their culture being forced as second class citizens to work with money started to realize hey money actually controls the world through centuries of honing that craft learning about finances you associate them with money a lot of people make that stereotype you associate Jews with money being greedy with the banks all that stuff positive or negative because culturally that's how they started Sean I get what you're saying like the connection that they had in their country they had gas transition exactly that's why Soul food that's why Soul food and all that right we we it wasn't like we didn't know how to work with shit in the Caribbean and African culture countries and then we assimilate it into what we had here in America what the definition of assimilation is oh my god are you literally I'm trying to do a true on you but I think you're using assimilation in the wrong context how?
SPEAKER_04How how so assimilation is when you bring when you adapt to forcefully adapt yourself to another culture okay so far so far you're the Western culture. So like uh uh I don't I just literally said that yeah I said they brought they brought their African people didn't assimilate into this culture they are not forcefully like willingly like it's almost like willingly adapting to another culture by force or some shit like that sort of it's it can be force or non-force you you assimilate however you assimilate I mean you can get there however you want to get there my whole the whole point I'm the whole point I'm saying is it wasn't it here it is the process of taking in information ideas or culture and fully absorbing or adapting yeah I yeah I that what I just said yeah yeah okay so yeah it's where is forced there's no force that's not a forced behavior fully absorbing or adapting yeah fully absorbing or adapting there's certain five that's I think there's certain like the real definition so here's the thing here's the thing and this is where we got off on the tangent with the culture thing and this is where I said right every culture every every race every race every race has a stereotype most races has a stereo have a stereotype right but unfortunately the stereotypes that are associated with us I I I don't I don't I don't agree and I don't subscribe to uh we know what the stereotypes are we don't have to sit here and pretend right if you see an Asian kid they say good at math and and Hugh pretended he didn't he never heard that before he never heard that saying but we know we yeah he said he pretended I said Hugh we hear Asian we hear Indian doctors we hear jewish lawyers right or or this we hear certain like ethnic groups and we assimilate we we we we we think of certain things we hear we hear black and and we all know what we start to go to hip hop right like all yeah that is black culture though fried chic but of yes black culture but but that's what I'm saying to you is like yes but we but but we but we're going to the lowest common denominator that's the problem I have us that's the problem I have with you specifically when you say shit like that I think it is I think fried chicken and hip hop are the lowest common denominator in our in our in in black in our in our black culture honestly I think it is I think it is I beg I think it is I very proud this is everybody has the way they feel and I think again a lot of where you're coming from is rooted in some kind of trauma whatever the fuck but I'm regardless of me being half breed or whatever I'm very proud of black culture and understand where it came from wow whatever I'm very proud of the accomplishments of people within the culture you know and people um ex going past it and doing whatever I'm happy with you know mixed breed children like yeah marking fuck all the white women you want make them all black this is what I want to see happen right in our world that's more ideal world for people like us right Drew may not nah Drew may like that who cares but at the end of the day you're the white guy I gotta but either way it's always it's this constant cycle of not not and and I I think a lot of black people fall into this where it's like hey we came from these things right um like hip hop was bred from struggle the food that we eat it came from the struggle that we had to go we had to eat the scraps we had to do this we had to do that the music that we made like jazz and blues and even country music all the shit came from black struggle for the most part and we're moving into spaces where you know like Michael Jackson made beautiful music there's artists now usher uh like Chris Brand has a bit these people people are there's black rock bands there's all types of shit going on where we're moving past the stereotypical black struggle music and making or or culture and turning it into other things but the problem but there was there was so much wait wait wait there was so much that didn't come from black struggle though we had a renaissance that uh during the 1920s maybe to the 40s that that was destroyed like you know like there was jazz and all this stuff people doing building their own businesses and all that stuff and it was destroyed and they consistently do that over time whenever we build something they destroy it so the constant negative stuff that they pump out there you're correct yeah they want us drinking lean and listening to trap music and staying in the hood and all that other shit and there is a way out and we've seen it and and again for such a small part like 15 16% of the population black people are very successful in things that they've done whether it's culturally or in education in business and all that type of stuff and yes I recognize all those things but also the core fundamental things of our culture need to be propped up a little bit more to understand like hey yeah this is what my grandma did when we was at home. You can't tell me that you're you're you yeah you show me that picture of you and your aunt or your grandma or whatever like you know you was eating fried chicken and and and greens and black eyed peas and shit like that. You could be proud of that too and still say it's a good thing and listen to the hip hop not saying nothing about not the lowest common denominator and I think no it's not disrespectful it's fried chicken elders and your ancestors.
SPEAKER_01No it's not because my and my and my elders and my ancestors never sat me down to tell me about fried chicken and the history of fried chicken. You know what they sat me down to tell me the shit that I'm trying to tell you.
SPEAKER_04You had that in the home they're not gonna tell you about it because this is what you understand.
SPEAKER_03You substantially said it yourself you said move past I don't know if you caught yourself when you said that but you used the phrase move past now look I agree move past what you said it you tell me I wish so anyway the point I'm gonna make this last point before I dip it could be two halves of very similar currencies. Sean is acknowledging these things right you're upset that he sees there's the lowest common denominator you can have that opinion because some of the things that are looked at as lowest common denominator I get mad when people say that too because other cultures are quick to adapt it and want to use it for their own oh yeah but at the same time to Sean's credit you're making it seem like just because it's for everyone like education and science that it's not cultural. It's cultural by the simple fact that people from our culture did it.
SPEAKER_04Why can't we not celebrate the fact we do celebrate that you you apparently don't because it's for everyone I never said so this is what I don't I I don't like the term black excellence because when it's used in most frameworks it's used to prop up simple things like oh she made it into college she graduated from high school he did this he did that like those things why is it simple you understand hold on you understand why people say that right yeah because it's because you're calling it simple for the mainstream and it's not for us most people that don't do that most people that don't do that is because when they're the first person in their family to actually do something very important for their family and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03You understand that right I mean uh it's like you're saying going to college or getting a degree or becoming a doctor is lowest common denominator as opposed to no no no everybody I just don't like the term I don't like the term black excellence what would you call it that's what I'm saying you understand why it's an achievement it's not like yeah because you're everybody's proud of say this if I have a kid right but I didn't go to college and they are and they went to college I'm definitely gonna be I'm gonna be hip hop hooray and say that's black excellence for myself and my generation because as a black person who values himself he couldn't do it and now he's seeing the next generation the fruits of his labor do it. That is a cultural milestone you know culture.
SPEAKER_04Well no okay it's more so that these basic things that people do on a random day are propped up extraordinary extraordinary things that black that uh as an extraordinary accomplishment for a black person.
SPEAKER_03Graduating high school and going to college it's part of basically you know a path to a better life for everybody right at the end of the day whether you're black white or yellow the fact that that in our culture it's propped up as this excellent thing like a lot of black people go to college a ton of black people go to college for the most part of them don't okay again there's a ton of white people don't college the majority of white people for the most part why wouldn't you want to advertise it though so more it doesn't work that way you're the expert in this when your cultural when your cultural significance is whittled down to things and you do something that is out of the norm that is something to celebrate is excellent. Why it's like now you're downplaying it because everyone else does it we are not bred to succeed bro you know it confuses people because it creates a picture in the civil rights era be black and white it creates my parents on black people because you're saying to them like hey to be excellent you have to do X, Y, and Z.
SPEAKER_04While the richest guy in the world can drop out of high school or drop out of college and become the richest guy in the world there's other paths to success rather or or or doing these things rather than saying hey this is excellence in itself why can't you know developing LLC there's black excellence too it's not if a black person I'm just saying it's it's a great thing to prop up but it's not you're saying specifically black people hey you are excellent if you just graduate from marginalized right no it has nothing to do with marginalization.
SPEAKER_03Because in our time in our thing we were taught to be down we were taught to be the the lowest of lowest of forms of shit you understand that to prop somebody up to say hey you did a good job today that's excellent that heightens your spirits that makes you happy you understand there shouldn't be a term for it you got to because then you be so I I I I beg to go I lose your life well well this is why I say you this why this why I say you about the about the I think the biggest thing is the biggest problem in in in in our community unfortunately is is the brainwashing that we've had to endure I just because because we because we because we look at we we look at it's it's like it and I talk to you about this all the time is where is where um you know growing up if some if if a kid talks proper or whatever, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh you talk white it becomes this whole thing of like it's like what's this whole dynamic? Why are we saying we talk white you know black people there's and this is why I said this is why I said to you last time create there's there there's black nerds there's black dweebs there's black eclectic there's black there's black all this like we need to stop thinking that you know we have to be some kind of like hip top tough like whatever there's there's black kids that are nerds and that's perfectly fine like there's nothing wrong with it nobody said that there's something wrong with it I'm saying what I'm saying is that there's this there's a condition but there's this conditioning because when you always go to hip hop culture and I understand what hip hop culture has done I understand what hip hop culture has done for the world and for society and for this that and the other but what we have to really understand is like what the real hip hop culture was right the Black Panther Panther culture and the different community organizations. There used to be community organizations that would go around in different inner cities and literally do clinics and teach kids about hygiene and keep teach kids about uh uh medicine and different things like that self-funded by the community directors and leaders and things like that. We used to have those things Hugh those things used to exist okay that used to be a part of our lexicon a part of our culture internally and then it started to shift into this I don't think it has what you got I think I think it had it took a battery. Parents and our our parents and our grandparents had a different ideology about upliftment and and honored. In my household, it was expected that we did certain things. If I didn't go to college, I was a failure. But we're trying to be it wasn't excellent that I just made it to college. Look, we're in our 40s. We're in our 40s, in my opinion. We're kind of a dying breed when it comes to that. My my mom was born in the 60s, right? Like it's it's kind of that that cusp that we came in, that 80s baby, and all that. Like we these kids now. And Drew, I mean, it's it's hard to connect, and it's hard to get the because the there's no community amongst the children. It used to be the kids and the parents, it was community amongst everybody. The grandmother.
SPEAKER_02We build community different now. It's just yep. So it's crowdsourced.
SPEAKER_01It's crowdsourced.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's uh transactional. Everything's online.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So your your neighbor, your neighbor used to be able to whoop your ass if you was doing something wrong in the street. Without no, without no explanation, without no.
SPEAKER_02You had to invent shit to keep yourself entertained, like stickball or fucking half ball, or some stupid game that you would run around the streets playing. So there's none of that anymore, really. Society has changed.
SPEAKER_01But but that's part of what I'm saying is that you can't.
SPEAKER_04There's people that excel and there's people who don't.
SPEAKER_01But but I but you're likening the culture of the hip hop and stuff like that, and I'm talking about like we were creating, I mean, we our culture was so rich and and so amazing, and it still is, but we we have to understand that.
SPEAKER_04I don't think any of that is lost, it's actually grown, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_01See, I I I don't know, man. I'm I'm a little I'm a little concerned of great artists and and all types of stuff. Like I'm a little concerned about where the stage in which we're in. I think it it's it's Q40, Q50 got killed. No, it's it's it's all the it's all these kids, man. It's all these young kids, man. Kids are gonna be kids. No, it's like no respect for elders, no, no, no, aunt, like there's no um that's taught in the house, man.
SPEAKER_04There, but that's the same thing. There's kids, there's white kids that do that shit. And I think I think every everybody's kind of in this downturn when it comes to socializing, uh, for the most part, and especially in this country. But um, it's it's to be expected when you have so much information and so much like lawlessness and and and um what what's the just just just look at what's going on like when it's accelerated this, the technology got faster ways for us to communicate without having to physically be in the same space.
SPEAKER_02COVID really accelerated this separation, yeah, and the ability to I'm gonna call it be lazy, right? In the sense of I can just text you, I don't actually have to call you.
SPEAKER_04I mean, it makes it easier in some parts, but it's but it depends on how you utilize the technology, how and and use it to your benefit as a creative, as a business person, or whatever, right? And that's just the way things are gonna move because people said, Oh, what are we gonna do with these computers back in the day? They're gonna I need to learn how to write separate things. I'm just saying it's the same thing.
SPEAKER_02People don't write that has enabled us to move faster.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02But could it depend on how it was like a catalyst that literally was like supercharged it? I mean, I think DoorDash and Instacart were like not big things. COVID hit, and all of a sudden, booming, you know, incredibly you know, profitable business. Yeah, if it wasn't for COVID, it probably would have taken much longer if they would have been able to sustain it.
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh, absolutely. I agree with that. Yeah, I mean it's the from from everything, everything happens so fast. All the vaccines, all the the screen time stuff, all the you know, like you know, I remember teachers saying before COVID, limit screen time, don't you know, do no more than 30 minutes a day or whatever. Then all of a sudden, all every kid has a tablet, every kid has a a a Chromebook, and that's how they learn. You know, there's I mean, I don't know next five years, will they even have notebooks, paper, pen? I mean, it's probably all gonna go away.
SPEAKER_02What I I don't know if it still is, but it used to be. What was the do you know what the number one hotel chain is?
SPEAKER_01Uh is it Hilton?
SPEAKER_02Airbnb.
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh, oh, oh yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and they don't have any brick and mortar.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, it's just like Uber Uber's the number one taxi service now.
SPEAKER_02But my point is, is uh no one's arguing change. Like you're sitting here saying like all this, no one's arguing change.
SPEAKER_04I don't know what you're being nostalgic about you both are being nostalgic about how we used to do things and this is what we had to do.
SPEAKER_01Like I'm not even gonna go down that path. I mean, it's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_02I mean, look, if you can do it easier and faster and get it done quicker, what built our culture, yeah, yeah. It's what was created as well as not exist today. Sean and I have cultural things that we can experience outside of our race. Yeah, because we grew up in an era that that we all had consistent experiences regardless of the color of our skin.
SPEAKER_04Yep. Okay. So I those those experiences root back to like how you you're uh Jewish, right? So you you grew up, you've told me if you grew up eating certain types of food and all that stuff, that that didn't spill over in Deshaun's house, right? So your experiences outside of the home or whatever builds carriers and the city.
SPEAKER_02No one leaves the kosher house and it's like, hey, I want to go go, hey, hey, mom, dad. You can we be kosher, right?
SPEAKER_00You playing blankets, lost the ball soup as a kid.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I grew up around you.
SPEAKER_01I actually like it. I know about the felter, I know about felter fish. It's how don't be don't be machigan.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_04My whole the whole point I've always I've been trying to make about culture, and again, the disconnects are massive here because everybody's associating one thing with another thing and another thing. Okay, the fundamental parts of American black culture, what what what we were built off of are certain things that I'm just telling, I'm telling I don't have to repeat you. You've outlined them. Right, those things are not things that we should necessarily be ashamed of or try to um overstate or overcorrect, that they just are, and that's what we built what our foundation was built on, and what we have to take on to the next as it evolves. So, yes, take certain things from that, whether you like fried chicken or not, or want to people have elevated the culture in a way, like making like certain foods better or creating new food, new music, new dress, right? So you you take all those things and and every culture evolves. Remember, this is we're talking four or five generations of black people in America who had nothing associated with African culture, you know, there was no Monsamus in the world.
SPEAKER_02My edible must have kicked in like 30 minutes ago. I have no clue where the fuck you're going. I'm just saying, I'm trying to I'm trying to, I'm trying to like I have no clue how you bring this home. Like, I don't even know where we veered off at this point.
SPEAKER_04I'm trying to re-establish the point I was trying to make with culture, and it veered off in the conversations about black excellence and you should be a consultant or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Literally, you'd get paid it.
SPEAKER_04No, I I appreciate the the the discourse here, but it also it misses the whole mark of understanding what culture is. And once you start appreciating your what your as a culture, what we we appreciate what we contribute as a culture into this America thing, but we also have to understand, yes, we have to recognize and realize and teach people that we were big contributors, but we also have to kind of fight the powers because they're they're eliminating it's not just black people understanding it, it's everybody understanding it. The fact of the matter is that we are not given the opportunity to shine like any other culture. Chinese people have their highlights, they they have all this type of stuff, Jewish people, everybody. Black people have constantly been tried to be erased from the historical landmark of history. They're doing it right now, Kari. Don't take that face.
SPEAKER_03They're taking down black landmarks, they're taking down Marshall and Alan. Again, I'm saying that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_04No one argued that point. Oh my god. Yes, I understand it happened, but they're not teaching it to kids. They never taught it to us in school for the most part. Yeah, black history money. They taught me to talking about, bro. Have you ever been to a school in Mississippi? Have you ever been to a school? I'm not generalizing.
SPEAKER_03Bro, y'all just went on the whole time, Ray, saying, while the things that you talked about, like fried chicken and hip-hop exist, you totally didn't see the point he was trying to make that there are other aspects of black culture that also can be elevated. And you said, fuck that, that shit don't do nothing.
SPEAKER_01That's that black excellence bullshit.
SPEAKER_04I'm saying this. I'm talking about history being a race, not culture. Culture, and for the most part, black culture will always be there. I wish I could rewind back five minutes ago when I said that you're taking you actually might have a developmental disorder. Holy shit. I said that black culture has to be elevated outside of the boundaries of the black home, all that type of stuff. And and history, and I I I guess I switched or pivoted over to history, where they're erasing our history from books and all that type of stuff, which also ties into black culture for the most part, while other like the point is is that in this country specifically, well not in, I think it's globally, American black culture is underappreciated and undervalued. They're both the same thing, I guess, and it's always discredited, even though it's it's a kingmaker for industries, it uh whether it be music industry, sports, whatever, it generates tons of money for everybody, everybody globally, in through innovation, through creativity, all that type of stuff. Black people, American black people's um impact on global culture is well known, but underappreciated, undervalued, and not shown as what it is and propped up as much as I feel like Sean wasn't arguing that.
SPEAKER_03I felt like he was just saying that I don't just want to be known for all the time. That's all I keep saying. Yeah, that's all I keep saying.
SPEAKER_01That's all I keep saying. I don't the the the stereotypes when you think of black people, unfortunately, do not go to where they go for other races. And we kind of self-describe ourselves as that based on the fact that's not how we treat each other. No, no, no, how we treat each other, bro. I'm telling you right now, inner city kid, right? You take an inner city kid, let's talk about the suburb, suburban kid, right? Bring him into the room. Before you go into West Virginia, there's automatically gonna be, but no, but but no, there's automatically woods of Mississippi, but but there are pieces shit, people that kill each other, white people that do things. I'm not talking about I'm not talking about because it's not in the news. I'm talking about it, they don't make it. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how we see another black person as a black person, as black. I can't believe you're not gonna be. I don't look at you and I don't look at you any different than I look at. No, I can't believe I can't believe you're being so obtuse with this. I'm talking about take yourself back to a high school kid, okay? Take yourself back to where you're the most influenced in life, a young adult, okay? When I saw it in real time, and I'm sure we can all attest, you may not attest to this, but we in our own mind, when a black kid, we see another black kid and we start sizing him up, oh, he ain't that he ain't you ain't real black because of XYZ, and we start talking about what that means. You may have never experienced or known this, but this is a real fucking thing, okay? So let me just give you a tidbit. We look at each other and we downplay each other how we talk, if we talk too pro, if we dress too, whatever, right? It's the whole dynamic of you trying to be something you're not, right? Challenging someone, having an intellectual debate, right? Can go to, well, I could be, I could fuck you up, I could fuck you know. These are problems internally that we've had in our own community because we've been brainwashed to infight to pull each other away from success and not acknowledge that it's not just hip hop, not acknowledge it's not just this shit that is in the media and television athletes and all this kind of stuff. We judge each other. Oh, you're not good at basketball, motherfucker. You can't play ball. You ain't black. Bro, I I Hugh, you can sit here and try to pretend. You can sit here and try to pretend these are not real conversations.
SPEAKER_04Is that everything? You have to have to prove your blackness to another black person?
SPEAKER_03No, I'm gonna ask them. There's Tasha's credit, there's been several times. You a county boy. You ain't from the hook, you a county boy. Like now, all the kids like anime and stuff back then. Oh that's white people shit.
SPEAKER_00That's why people shit.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, that's white people shit.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't white people shit. That shit was Asian kids. No, it's hot.
SPEAKER_01It was something that shit was just gay to me. It was something, it was something else. It was something, it was something else that we couldn't be. It was something else that we couldn't be, and that's the whole problem. It was something else that wasn't. It's different.
SPEAKER_04That's the same, that's the same as any kid growing up getting picked on. You couldn't be gay in school, bro. I never see I never I never seen.
SPEAKER_03You ain't Asian because you ain't like, for example, let's let's look at like what is that? Let's look at a movie like Friday, right?
SPEAKER_01You know this.
SPEAKER_03If a black person said they never saw Friday, first thing would be like, give me your black card. Yeah, like what's your black card gonna take?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like what's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_03Like, have you ever heard there's actual videos of that? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like have you ever heard the you've never seen um, for example, um, you've never read Journey to the West? Give me your Chinese card right now. Exactly. They don't do that.
SPEAKER_01No, no, yes, we stereotype ourselves. Yeah, we do that.
SPEAKER_04People do the same thing.
SPEAKER_01No, oh my god.
SPEAKER_04On social media, all that stuff. I hear people like I seen things like oh, you don't know when they close down the bar and this journey song comes on. I seen that shit. That's that's that's uniquely no, like that's not what's not even.
SPEAKER_00That's not unique. They're only doing that because they're not gonna be able to do it.
SPEAKER_03You've never heard the song and they look at the same thing. That's not the closest thing to that, is he it's normally like a regional thing. Like when Jack Foxware'd be like, You might be a redneck if he's not saying you might be a white person if yeah, yeah, like it's not.
SPEAKER_04Where are we going?
SPEAKER_00Black rednecks, you know that, right?
SPEAKER_04Um I mean, like there are black rednecks. Yeah, yeah, that is true. Okay, and so there's also like white people that know how to play basketball.
SPEAKER_03And if anything, guess what that means? Now they're invited to the cookout.
SPEAKER_01You see what I'm saying? But that's that's the thing, yeah. But that's the thing. That's the thing, Hugh. It's like like white people get a connotation like G.I. tokenized white people, G.I. Joe, G.I. Joe. I mean, black white black people in the white culture. G. I Joe is has a has a connotation of a white soldier, right? G. I. Joe, right? But we all as a kid. G. You know what? You you really don't, you really don't, um you you know what? You don't have a lot of you don't really have a way of you really don't have a you you you have a very narrow way of looking looking at something. You uh you latch onto something. You don't look at like holistically. You look, you latch. As soon as you hear something that you can latch to, you just latch. You don't even know what's going on. So it's hard. You I literally am trying to explain to you G.I. Joe, the name of the fucking show. And you're talking about there are other Asian G.I. Joe's. I'm talking about the actual idea of G.I. Joe. I'm talking about the idea of a G.I. Joe soldier. Nobody's thinking about fucking an Asian G.I. Joe. I know you want to be a I know you want to do this to try to kick. I know you, I we all, we all, I I love Snake Eyes. I've tried kind of shit. I mean, we all hope we black. I thought we we all hoped we was black because we all used to be like play with him as a digits. Um but but but but again, again, like I said, like I know, I know, I know Hugh, and there's also a fucking uh Storm Shadow. He's definitely Cobra, but okay. Okay, okay. Oh, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04I'm just I don't know much about it.
SPEAKER_01But there's there's certain things, there's certain things that you're you're never you're never gonna um you're never gonna relate, you're never gonna relate to this. It's like a Barbie doll, right? Someone says, oh, a Barbie doll, she's a Barbie doll. Someone automatically thinks is of a white girl, like blonde, you know, like a Barbie doll. Yeah, you see, you're gonna see there's more representation. I just bought an angel read Barbie. I gotta go, because you're you're only gonna do this. You you're gonna pretend to pretend to be you're that's not the problem 20, 30 years ago.
SPEAKER_04We've progressed past that. And you're going backwards and saying, hey, we have to still fight the thing.
SPEAKER_00It's still happening today, though. Who can't who was cast in the Barbie movie?
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00It was Black Barbie because Barbie's the main who's the main character.
SPEAKER_01But he doesn't see the idea.
SPEAKER_04Like, why this matters? Wait, wait, what what okay? Was there not representation of blackies?
SPEAKER_00In the movie?
SPEAKER_04I saw the movie. They only came out.
SPEAKER_00Okay, blonde.
SPEAKER_04They were all Barbies, and they were all do you understand? All the Barbies became Barbie, and all the cats are named Cats.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_04Do you understand that? And there was black boys and I think one of her best friends in the movie is Black Boys.
SPEAKER_01The white what does that have to do with anything? So that's what he doesn't get. What does it have to do with anything? That's what he does.
SPEAKER_02Like multiple times.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but yeah, we just wait, but you're I'm not making sense because the movie represented Barbie.
SPEAKER_01Hey, Hugh, you saw the 9-11 movie? Did you see that movie? The 9-11 movie? Did you see the movie? Which one? That was in a movie, the main one that was in a movie theater that depicted 9-11. It was a big blockbuster movie that came out and talked about a soldier. It covered a soldier that was saving people in the movie. You didn't see it. Of course not. But that soldier, that soldier, that soldier, that soldier that they cast for the movie in real life. The soldier was real life. It was a black person. They cast him as a white person. Okay? I know you don't think this matters. I know you don't think it who cares.
SPEAKER_04There was a couple of movies that Nicholas Cage. And you're like, no, no. Oh, the one in the movie. Whoopi Goldberg, the Charlie Sheen movie?
SPEAKER_01No. The main one that covered the the soldier, the main 9-11 movie that covered the guy that saved all those people.
SPEAKER_04You don't even know what what the 2000s call him? I don't know. What's the name of the movie? I don't know.
unknownOh my god.
SPEAKER_01Okay. It's called World Trade Center. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, World Trade Center. Yes. You never saw the movie. Nicholas Cage? Yes, the big one. Yes. Okay, so what was the problem? They had a soldier in the movie that was saving people. It was very well documented that he was saving people. And he's a black guy.
SPEAKER_04The real soldier.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I know you don't. I know you don't. No, I just I still don't understand. No, no, it's fine. No, it's fine. We're uh it's fine.
SPEAKER_04I was talking about I'm talking about representing I had a whole conversation. Yeah, we're talking about representation. No, not not necessarily representation. I'm just talking about like culture and understanding.
SPEAKER_01You just said that we don't get recognized and all this kind of stuff. And we just talked, I just talked about the reasons why, in my opinion. And now you're fighting it.
SPEAKER_04What do you what what do we okay the fact that Hollywood, and they still do this to this day, where they've made you know uh white people black or black people white, they made a black little mermaid? Are you is that cool with you? Of course it's cool with me. And what's I mean, what's the difference? That's representation.
SPEAKER_01But but you said but you but you said you said Barbie's somebody made Barbie, no no Barbie's area, no Barbie's a representation. No, Barbie's a represent no, see, you don't understand. Barbie is not a fake character, it's a representation of what beauty is, what looks good, a Barbie, right? It's it's it's a fucking it's a connotation of of beauty. Like it is. I don't I cannot explain these things to you because you do not get it. So it's just let's just you it's fine. You're you're you know, it's not gonna get there. It we're just it's not gonna get there.
SPEAKER_04I fail to understand. You you brought up Barbie, and I said, Yeah, I saw the movie. There was pretty good representation of black, Latino, everybody in that movie. I'm looking at it right here. There's a black Barbie standing right behind Barbie right here, and a Latin one and a whatever.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna understand and answer the question of who was the main character. The main character Barbie. Who's on the what's the name? Margot Robbie.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Margot Robbie, a white woman.
SPEAKER_00So what who is Margot Robbie? A blonde haired, blue eyed white woman. And what did the first Barbie look like? That's what we're getting at. With a representation of Barbie.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Okay, that's what we're getting. Again, if you understand if you understand the history of Barbie, all of these things, all these people, and I'm gonna pull it up from the movie. All these bitches right here was named Barbie too. Okay. Okay, and what are you saying? What are you saying?
SPEAKER_01Everybody, every man was a Ken, and there was a you have a you have a leave that leave that picture up. No, no, go back to the picture. I'm looking no go back to that first picture. Go back to the picture. Go back first, yeah. The first picture of the original pictures. Because I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to understand what the fuck you're talking about right now. What are you talking about? Black girl right here. Wow. Guys, there's a big girl right here. Hold on. These represent the whole thing, ginger girl. How is she?
SPEAKER_02Why do you think they made that movie that way? Why do you think they were actually giving cultural representation across all shades of skin, shapes, and sizes, physical, right? Why do you think they were calling attention to it? Because the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Barbie is what people think of when you say Barbie.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Okay. So look at this picture, you pull up.
SPEAKER_02Hey, you're not if that's your point.
SPEAKER_04There's an Asian Barbie. All right. Here's an Asian Ken, black Ken. Ken. These are all Barbie.
SPEAKER_02I can't believe you can't hear the point in this. Yeah, I know. Why are you trying to make it?
SPEAKER_04I don't understand. I don't understand.
SPEAKER_00The stereotype behind it. So when Barbie first came out, there was no representation. Zero. Okay. No representation.
SPEAKER_04And they made a movie type of barbie where they did this. 30, 40 years later, Hugh. Oh my God. You don't think that. Okay, so the fact that something changed makes you mad.
SPEAKER_01No. You have to be aware. I'm fully aware. Okay, go back to the picture you pulled up. What is your point? That's the point. Pull that picture. Pull that picture up. I'm gonna make my pull that picture. What your point is? Pull that picture up. Pull the picture up. What is your first one? The first one. The first one. That you pulled up. That first one is right here. Where you wanted to point out. Yes, right? Okay, leave it there. Leave it there. What do you see wrong with this picture? When you're talking about this is a picture giving representation.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. What do you see wrong? I don't see nothing wrong with Barbie.
SPEAKER_01Where is where is where is the real Barbie positioned? That's the main character. She's right in front. She's right there in front. Where is where is the representation of the bigger? She's right here in the front with her foot leg up. Okay, where is the one black girl positioned? Behind her? I can't believe like you say it. You're you're just you're just late. We just had a whole conversation about the Vegeta's at where we just now I'm the lost one because there's symbolism behind that. And I said specifically to you, if if there were black legs, is there some hierarchy they're trying to represent? Did I not say if there were black legs in those shoes? Did I not say that? I said they're just shoes. But when we're talking about art and something existing in an art form, right, when there's nothing there but a set of shoes, but we're talking about people and how you position people and how you place them in a publicized picture of promotion. We can go through all these pictures, all of them. Look them up, look up Barbie, go through 8,000 of them, and I guarantee you you're not gonna see any forefront. You don't understand it because you're trying to defend it as representation.
SPEAKER_04It's better than zero black people.
SPEAKER_01I'm not saying it's not, but you have to recognize, okay? I'm not saying it's not representation. I'm not saying it's bad, but you have to be fucking acknowledging the fact that that is not holistically representation, Hugh. Because you know what is 40 years of pushing the middle one in everybody's face. Do you get it now? I get it.
SPEAKER_04Do you under I know?
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's the that's the real power, Hugh. 40, 50, hundreds of fucking years to get you to a point to acknowledge hip hop in a way that you'll die on that fucking hill, but you won't acknowledge the shit I'm talking about, that you really should be dying on that fucking hill. That's the point that I'm making.
SPEAKER_04Who's your favorite rapper?
SPEAKER_01Who's my favorite rapper?
SPEAKER_04Who's your favorite rapper?
SPEAKER_01Uh big I mean, Biggie is one of my favorite rappers, Jay-Z is one of my favorite rappers. They rap about an assorpino thing. Yeah, I think I'm just asking.
SPEAKER_04I want to understand like where this is coming from.
SPEAKER_01But this is why I'm saying okay, and this is why I'm saying it's low-hanging fruit. Yeah, I mean, I can tell you what they rap about. Bitches, hoes, drugs. They also rap about what's going on in different environments. They also rap about fatherless homes. They also rap about prison reform. They rap about a whole bunch of shit. They rap about a whole bunch of shit.
SPEAKER_04What does Talib Kwali rap about? Talib Kali? Also, Lecrae. Well, let's talk about Lecrae. He's a Christian rapper. Okay, I don't know. Raps about God and shit. The rappers that rap about. But why aren't these your favorite people that you prop up? We have conversations and we talk about how Dame Dash and Jay-Z were our heroes.
SPEAKER_01You you you want to know why? You want to know why? It's because when they were fucking rapping, I was 14, 15 years old. And you know what you were doing at 14, 15 years old? The same shit I was fucking doing that every fucking kid that is 14, 15 fucking years old does, listens to hip hop, fucking does shit they're not supposed to be. Do you make your bed in the morning now? Do you? Or do you just let the do you just get out of bed and let that shit just go? Or do you think that's the way that's the same?
SPEAKER_04So you can you you're so you're saying that we can evolve as humans and and appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01Yes, we can. Yes, we can. We can appreciate that. But I don't think I don't think I don't think hip hop has evolved as as our race. I don't think that's evolving from where we came from. So if you want to liken and fried chicken and and basketball and shit like that is evolving from science and mathematics and and and medicine, I don't think that's evolving. Yeah, go look up some J go look up some James Baldwin and come back. Go look up James Baldwin and listen to everything he has to had to say, and then come back to me and talk about this shit that you're talking to me about right now.
SPEAKER_00I'm not a Negro.
SPEAKER_01You know what I'm saying? Like all the entertainers and shit, all this bullshit, that to me is smoke screen. That to me is smoke.
SPEAKER_04But you still consume it, right? You don't you don't tell your kid not to listen, though. Do you does your kid listen to hip hop music?
SPEAKER_01Actually, X does not listen. I I'm kind of surprised. X does not listen to hip hop music. But but but what I'm saying, but what I'm saying is, and if you wanted to listen to hip-hop music, I'm not gonna.
SPEAKER_04Even my nieces don't really listen to a lot of rap music either.
SPEAKER_01I I the the thing about it is, Hugh, is that we all have to live in some way, shape, or form into hypocrisy because there is no perfect solution. Uh there's no perfect fit, okay? There's no perfect way to solve the problems of humanity. What we can do, however, is we can be honest and we can be conscious and we can call out the obvious. We can do that, okay? So it's like anything else. We can find the root evil and everything, the laptop I'm on. Give me a few days, I can find the root evil and why I should not have this laptop. I can find it for you. But what we have to be is conscious about the fact of all this growth that you say we have, all this forward thinking that you say that's happened, all these billionaires and billionaires, and then there's a lot of people.
SPEAKER_04My problem with you is that you criticize it while you can start.
SPEAKER_01I'm not criticizing.
SPEAKER_04You literally just said this is the bottom rung of our culture, and da-da-da. While you listen to trap music, while you follow the little dirt case like it's a fucking Bible verse. Like while you literally be so interested in what Charleston White has to say versus whoever, what DJ Academics is talking about. You know what's the type of shit you can do. You know what's so funny? I don't consume that shit.
SPEAKER_01It's it's like it's like saying it's like saying if you have a daughter, you don't fucking jerk off the porn. Like, what's wrong with you? Like you're being you're being asinine right now. You're being very, but I don't criticize it. I'm I'm not criticizing it.
SPEAKER_04You're literally saying that that like being honest, or a bunch of a bunch of shit to tell me, oh, I don't understand it. I'm a piece of shit because I don't acknowledge certain things that that's you can be honest, Hugh.
SPEAKER_01You can still be honest.
SPEAKER_04I'm being honest to saying, hey, Barbie has a representation, and not instead of saying I'm not saying that that's like an amazing thing, but but hey, it's something you're like saying, like, oh my god, this is some cultural fucking disaster or catastrophe that the black girl's not standing in front or she wants the main character.
SPEAKER_01But it is, but it is a cultural catastrophe because it took them decades upon decades upon decades to have a Barbie that you could hold in your hand that looked like something. Black Little Mermaid, they made a black Cinderella, they made so there's a lot of fictional characters that were black. I just I just yeah, I just can't I can't get it.
SPEAKER_04So you're telling me just because there wasn't any, there wasn't enough representation for you and Barbie, that's a that's a problem.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm telling you that the institution that created it was not meant to have representation for the city. The institution that created that also created the black Cinderella and the Merrill Little Mermaid. Pew, you are we are in a world today that in order to have we are in a world we are in a world today that there is something called social capitalism. That when you need to make money, okay, a part of your fucking pro forma and how you're gonna sell shit, there's a social element that did not exist before. Before you could sell shit and nobody thought the wiser. Now, our businessmen, people that create algorithms around this and budgets around this understand there's a social element to this. Not necessarily because they care about the social element, it's because they care about the dollars and cents behind the social element. So you're here sitting talking about representation and you're thinking that's real. And I'm trying to explain to you that it's not. We can all be entertained, we can all do shit that doesn't fit into the laurels.
SPEAKER_04So you don't think it's meaningful that a little black girl can see the little mermaid being black?
SPEAKER_03That's not meaningful. I don't know. You don't think it's meaningful that a black man became a Supreme Court justice? You never said that, dude.
SPEAKER_04When did I say when did I say it wasn't meaningful? On that note, on that note, see that's what I don't understand. You're telling me I never said that on that note, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think it's time to go brother.
SPEAKER_04I never said that.
SPEAKER_03See Crest out that's some bullshit.
SPEAKER_04No, I never said that. Well, you allusion.
SPEAKER_03You just said it's for everybody, so it shouldn't be propped up. Anybody could be cast in the as the little mermaid, an accomplishment.
SPEAKER_04Again, people accomplishing things within certain there's the first Chinese, this, there's the first black, this is the first black. I'm very proud. My my my grandfather was the first black merchant marine captain. Very proud of that history should be that that heritage that I have. First black student at West Point. And they would not let him. He worked from he had to work in the British Navy up until he was his 20s.
SPEAKER_01If he was here, and if he was here, and if he was here, he'd probably smack it right dead in your face. He would understand that we are. No, he would not agree with the shit you're talking about right now.
SPEAKER_04If he had lived to see Barack Obama become president or any of that, he probably he would probably be very be very proud of those moments, like a lot of older black people were. But also at the end of the day, you have to understand that yes, now we're what's next? What can we do to after being the first black person at West Point?
SPEAKER_03What's next is being the first black person cast in the Disney cash grab live action remake. Now I get it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm not getting it. We've come a long way. We've come a long way.
SPEAKER_04See, you you you said you guys are misinterpreting understanding my uh the the understanding of what black culture is called. So you know who's a great representation in the background of a Barbie movie, success and black Naomi Osaka. I want to put her at the in a spotlight here. No, she's she she's Jack.
SPEAKER_03Sit down, Naomi Osaka about the sex in the court. Shut the fuck up.
SPEAKER_04She is a great representative of black culture because she she just honored Alan Iverson. She embraces hip-hop music, she embraces all things black, even though she's mixed. And saying Coco Goff, uh, with when she uh you know when she goes out, oh, there's the Serena Williams and all of them.
SPEAKER_02You know, Iverson a good representation of what of what you're trying to illustrate. What do you mean? As far as his impact on culture.
SPEAKER_03I think so. The concept of perseverance and breaking barriers, is that not a part of black culture? Like, you know, Arthur Ashe, like the stadium that they play in in New York doing that tournament.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's but you're talking within a system. Okay, you're talking within the American system. Is what look, so Naomi Honor said the US Open is what kind of system. John McEnroe where they break or Andre Agassi. Like Barry did John McEnroe break. No, I'm just saying they they high performers, all these guys did things, and it's just recognized that there were great talents because they were white. There wasn't that many black tennis players at that time when Arthur Ashe was being successful and did what he did. Yes, he broke it. Jackie Robinson broke barriers, you know.
SPEAKER_03Is not cultural? That's not that's not important.
SPEAKER_04It helps uplift the culture.
SPEAKER_03Now again, but just that as much as being the first black Cinderella. I mean, what's more just making sure?
SPEAKER_04What would be more impressive to me is if the systems that we worked in let us actually have our own shit. Why can't, like when when they um wanted to let's just say, let's take the NFL for example, right? Very systemically racist system that kind of just treats all the men in the league like cattle, right? Uh, specifically black men. Like they love it when you don't have a mom and they could just do whatever and take advantage of you and put you on the field to your brain to get scrambled. So imagine like how many, how many times did they let a black owner in? Or how many times, even though there's tons of people with money that can do this, they don't let them in because they know that it's a system that they want to keep that system going. Hollywood, same way.
SPEAKER_03No, but I think I think where I'm losing. I'm just trying to understand why, in the forms of entertainment and food and fashion, black These are all culture things. Yeah, but like education can't be considered culture or exactly that's why I'm law. But you but you don't represent the city. But you don't speak of it in the same reverence.
SPEAKER_01When you start talking about hip hop and you start talking about fright, when you start talking about these other things, you get so passionate. Well you you don't get passionate about real real world things, like real world.
SPEAKER_04I do get passionate that we that we've that we've influenced and created.
SPEAKER_01You get passionate about you get real passionate about hip hop. That was born in the 80s. Like that's not that's I get it. That's a that's on the surf, that's not even scratching the surface to me. I mean, I what you have to understand that circumstances these rappers are all the same age as us. Like, what the fuck are we talking about?
SPEAKER_04I get it. But also you have to understand the circumstances that people come in. This is why the the the like when I had the thing about black excellence up there, like kind of articulating better what what it means to me. It's saying to black people that you have to conform to a certain standard of education, of of of uh success to be considered excellent when you are criticizing the culture for itself for being one way or another, meaning oh, hip-hop is negative or sports, we shouldn't be saying that these people are good at sports or whatever. Well no one ever said that. No one ever said that in white culture, let's just say white culture is what is that?
SPEAKER_02What is white culture in America?
SPEAKER_04White white is the culture in America, meaning that what what you said? Apple pie, fucking guns and bibles, or American culture? Or American culture, American culture, but American white culture.
SPEAKER_01No, so America again has so much. You didn't grow up eating hot dogs and and you didn't grow up eating hot dogs and shit? Like you don't know what hot dogs are?
SPEAKER_04Uh what? America, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01You didn't grow up eating you didn't grow up eating apple pie?
SPEAKER_04You didn't you didn't white culture in America is defined by like the just the history that they created here. Not necessarily, because everybody has their own heritage that they came from, like Germany. The people uh there I I would say white people don't have a specific culture, but certain things are associated with American culture, meaning the you know, like apple pie and hot dogs and shit like that.
SPEAKER_00White culture does not exist.
SPEAKER_04A unified white culture does not exist? Yes. What's white supremacy? Dangerous. That's what that is.
SPEAKER_02That that's what it is.
SPEAKER_03Bro, white people white supremacy, bro. Klans members will literally hang other white people. Have you watched this? You know, remick the you know, it's not a real movie. That's an example. Don't do that.
SPEAKER_00Don't do that. I even looked it up. White culture does not exist.
SPEAKER_03Bro, other other like clansmen hunted other white people based off their culture.
SPEAKER_00White people have built their culture off of other races.
SPEAKER_04Irish. That's but that's that's what I'm saying. It's a good it's a conglomerate of the.
SPEAKER_00You said what is white culture? There is no white culture. I explained it to you.
SPEAKER_04But you just said white people take their culture from other people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so every culture's issues. And I says I agree with the term white supremacy.
SPEAKER_03I'm just but white supremacy is confused by like we want to prop up black people in certain mediums, but not others. That's just I just don't understand.
SPEAKER_00But the standard excellence you said don't do anything about black excellence.
SPEAKER_03So no, you're telling you specifically have to do these things. Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Alex Morgan, the woman who invented the GPS name escaped me. Like, why are we downplaying them? Nobody's downplaying them.
SPEAKER_02All your kids, most people tell their kids they want to see them go to school, excel, excel, you know, get a better education, learn a trade, develop a skill.
SPEAKER_04I think everybody does.
SPEAKER_02Every kid, what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_01I have to I have to run my uh them getting texts about yeah, I gotta go to I can't go to circles with you.
SPEAKER_03I definitely have to extend a maste. I was supposed to be here for like 15 minutes. Um there should be some.
SPEAKER_02I know, I know.
SPEAKER_04I don't know. I just feel sometimes that we get so wrapped up in our feelings about you.
SPEAKER_02You feeling about you're out of your mind. Yeah, you better go back and listen to this.
SPEAKER_00Hold on. You better you better clip that part where you were foving at the mouth. You better clip that shit.
SPEAKER_04But guys, I I I think that, and this is a thing with why we're in the state we're in in America, is because no, I'm serious. People just don't understand how to think anymore critically about this stuff. I know everybody grips onto the LC about how they should be how they really are.
